Jesus is Both God and his Son? Part 2

This is part 2 of this series in response to:

Blog of the Good Shepherd

(Click Here for Part 1)

The statement is made that “Christians believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully God.” Actually, this is not true, since there are many, many Biblically-oriented Christians who do not believe this. What this should actually state is that Christians who believe in the trinitarian dogma believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully God. The Bible itself never mentions such a duality as described by trinitarians, for such dogma has to be assumed, added to, and read into, each scripture that is presented to allegedly support the assumed dogma.

Trinitarians assume this idea to be true and then go all through the words of Jesus and claim that parts of the words apply to Jesus in his alleged God “nature,” and his being the Supreme Being, and that other parts of his words apply to Jesus as his being a human being, which being is not the Supreme Being. They will often split one sentence of Jesus two or three ways so as to make some parts of it apply to the alleged Jesus the Supreme Being, and other parts of the same sentence apply to Jesus the human being (who is not the Supreme Being.)

Following their reasoning through, Jesus is now two beings, one who is the Supreme Being, and another who is not the Supreme Being, for they claim that Jesus is right now still a human being, with a body of flesh, so that it would be only that human being that would address another as Supreme Being in Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12. Likewise, when Paul and Peter refer to the God and Father of Jesus (Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3,11:31; Ephesians 1:3; 4:6; 1 Peter 1:3), they would add to this that this refers to the human being Jesus, and not the alleged Supreme Being Jesus. Thus, right now in the heavens, according this dogma, Jesus the human has another who is his Supreme Being.

Following such logic through to its logical end (which logic the trinitarian dogma simply ignores), then Jesus is right now as a human being that is not the Supreme Being, but rather lower than the Supreme Being, and he is also right now the Supreme Being who is not the human being, Jesus. In effect, it would claim that Jesus has two different sentiencies: (1) One sentient being that is omniscient; and (2) one sentient being that is not omniscient, and evidently is not aware of all that the alleged Jesus as the omniscient being is aware of. — Mark 13:32; John 14:10; Revelation 1:1.

By his having two different sentiencies at the same time, one of which is not aware of the other, doesn’t this actually draw the conclusion that Jesus himself is two different persons? Trinitarians deny that Jesus is two persons, but, in actuality, what other conclusion can we come to, if we take thier reasoning to the logical conclusions? Of course, some trinitarians will admit that their dogma isn’t logical, and claim that we cannot understand God, and by this they justify the illogic of their added dogma. Some even offer the illogic of their dogma as proof that their dogma is true, claiming that since we cannot fully understand God, then there is no reason to fully understand the added-on dogma. In reality, why add such to the scriptures when the scriptures can be seen to fully in harmony without adding such dogma to the scriptures?

Nevertheless, Jesus had had two different beings, but not at the same time. Paul speaks of two general forms of being and the glory of both in 1 Corinthians 15:40, the celestial (heavenly, spiritual) glory and the terrestrial (earthly, physical) glory. However, Paul does not confound the two. He states: “the glory of the celestial differs from that of the terrestrial.” And, “As is the one made of dust, such are those who are also made of dust; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.” (1 Corinthians 15:48) They two separate glories, on two different planes of existence.

While Jesus was a human being, Jesus prayed to the only true God: “Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.” (John 17:1,3,5) We can learn several things from what Jesus stated here: (1) That Jesus had a glory with the only true God before the world of mankind was made; (2) that Jesus did not at the time of this prayer have that glory, else why would he pray for this glory; (3) his prayer to have that former glory indicates his expectation of again having the glory he had with the only true God before the world was made.

However, Jesus did have a glory while he was a human being. His body of flesh was especially prepared by God, separate from the sin of Adam, so that he did not share in the sinful flesh and its condemnation through Adam. Adam, before he sinned, being without sin at that time, he did not fall short of the glory of God in his flesh. When he sinned, then he fell short of that glory, and his flesh became sinful. (Roman 3:23) He was not, by nature, a child of wrath nor a son of disobedience until he disobeyed. (Ephesians 2:2,3) It was this condition that all of us have received from Adam before we are even born into this world, necessitating a deliverance from this condition and its result — death. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22) This is the way that humanity’s flesh became “sinful.” (Romans 8:3)

Jesus, however, did not share that sinful nature, since his body was prepared by his God. (Hebrews 10:5) Thus, when he left the glory he had before, he became flesh, but with the condemnation of sin through Adam. He never once sinned; he never once disobeyed his God and Father. Never having sin, he never fell short of the glory of God in his flesh. He had the full terrestrial glory while he was a human, but he did not have the glory that he had before became flesh. (Hebrews 2:9) The purpose of his becoming flesh was to offer that flesh, unblemished by sin, as an offering for sin. (Hebrews 10:10; John 6:51) He completed that offering, without blemish, to the only true God after he ascended. (Acts 1:9; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 9:14,24-26; 10:11) Having offered that flesh for sin, he does not take back that offering. Nor has he any need to become a human being again, since there is no sacrifice to be offered for sin. — Hebrews 10:26.

Jesus, therefore, no longer has the glory of a human being, but he now again has the glory of the heavenly, celestial, spiritual being. His life, however, is still derived from the only true Supreme Being, as we read, “yet he lives through the power of God.” — 2 Corinthians 13:4.

Thus, we see the three phases of Jesus’ existence: (1) The glory of a heavenly being that Jesus had with the only true God before the world of mankind was made; (2) the glory of a sinless human being while he was a human; (3) the glory of a heavenly being as he now is.

None of this, however, supports the dualistic approach of the trinitarian which would have Jesus as two sentient beings at once.

It is being claimed that we do not understand orthodox Trinitarian thought as shown in the Chalcedonian Creed, and that we have inserted a Nestorian view. We are, of course, not presenting the so-called “orthodox” trinitarian thought above, but we are presenting the logical conclusion that the so-called orthodox idea of “dualism” would lead to.  Of course, we realize that the trinitarian does have to throw logic out the window in order to have the trintarian assumption to appear to be supported by the scriptures. In actuality, there  stll is absolutely nothing at all in the Bible about Jesus’ having existence at two different planes of sentiency at once. Of course, the trinitarian does not word it that way; he would add to and read into the scriptures that Jesus has two “natures” at once. The Greek word they would give for “nature” is “hypostasis” — “treis hypostaseis en mia ousia”, (“three persons in one substance”), or “mia ousia, treis hypostaseis” (“One essence in three hypostases”), and then they would add to and read into this their trintiarian definitions as they would this word apply to Jesus, while totally disregarding most of the logical conclusions as we have presented above. The word “hypostasis” does appear in the Greek New Testament five times, but it is never used in the Bible in the manner of the claims being made by the trinitarian. The whole concept presented by the trinitarian has to be assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to allegedly support the added-on trinitarain dogma.

We are chided for assuming “unipersonalism.” In truth, the default assumption is that God is one person, not more than one, since that is the way that God is presented all the way through the scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation. And that one true God is presented by Jesus as his Father. (John 17:1,3) We make no apologies for the assumption that God is one person, and we have no reason to try to prove that God is not more than one person! The onus is on the trinitarian, not us, to provide the proof that God is more than one person. However, all the “proof” that the trinitarian provides actually has to be added to and read into the scriptures, for the scriptures no where say anything at all about more than one person in God.

Jesus never claimed to be that one true God, not once!!! Jesus never claimed to be the Most High, not once!!!! Jesus never claiemed to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not once!!! All the claim attributed to Jesus for such have to be asssumed, added to, and read into each and every scripture presented to alleged to support the added-on assumptions. There is absolutly nothing in the Bible about Jesus’ having two “natures” at once, as that term is used by trinitarians.

To be continued in Part 3