Category Archives: Son of God

Definition of Jesus – Has the Son of God Always Existed?

The statement is made that the Son of God has always existed, but that Jesus has not always existed. The claim, in effect, is that Jesus is only the Son of God in the flesh; that the Son of God is not “Jesus” aside from the flesh. Thus, it is claimed that Jesus is for all eternity still a human being. There are several errors in this line of reasoning that are false and contrary to scripture. Indeed, such a teaching nullifies the basis of the atonement.  Of course, Jesus had only been given the name “Jesus” when he came into the world of mankind that had been made through him. This does not mean that Jesus did not exist before his becoming a man, nor does it mean that Jesus ceased to exist since he is no longer in the days of his flesh. — Hebrews 5:7.

The Son of God has not always existed; only the God of whom he is the Son has always existed. The very term “son” denotes that he was brought forth into existence, and thus at some point he did not exist.

John 1 is cited as proof that the Son of God has always existed. In reality, however, such a thought has to be imagined in the imaginations of men, assumed, added to, and read into, what is stated in John 1. The fact that the Logos of God is spoken of as already in existence at the beginning spoken of in John 1:1 does not mean that Logos had always been in existence. One needs to consider what is meant by “the beginning” as well as what is meant the “panta”  — all — that was brought forth into existence by means of the firstborn creature.

See our studies on this at:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=200

http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=300

http://defending.reslight.net/?p=10

The other matter of grave importance is the claim that Jesus is still  human being, else he would not be Jesus. This is actually sophistry, since there is nothing at all in the scriptures to support such a claim. If, however, Jesus is still a human being, a little lower than the angels, then Jesus has not given up his human flesh, soul, body, life for all eternity to pay the redemptive price for sin, and thus the very basis of the atonement is nullified.

http://atonement.reslight.net

As we have shown in earlier studies, Jesus is no longer in the days of his flesh, he was put to death in the flesh and made alive in the spirit. This does not in any way mean that Jesus had to cease being Jesus simply because he is now a spirit being, higher than the angels, and no longer a human being, lower than than the angels. Jesus, although he did not carry the name of Jesus, was still the same person before he became flesh. It was Jesus who spoke of his existence with his God and Father, the only true God, before the world of mankind was made. (John 17:3,5) Thus, Jesus, although he did not yet have the name Jesus, was in existence with the glory of a celestial, not a terrestrial body (1 Corinthians 15:40), before the world of mankind was made. It was Jesus who said that he was to return to where he was before. Thus, it was Jesus — although he did not bear the name Jesus at that time — who was in the “where” to which he was to return. (John 6:62) Likewise, even though Jesus is no longer flesh, no longer a human being, and has been exalted again with the celestial glory, above the angels, he is still Jesus, and he is no longer of the terrestrial glory of a human being.

See our earlier studies at:

http://atonement.reslight.net/?p=1

http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=218

http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=215

Jesus’ Two Glories

Some claim that John 1 and Colossians 1 defines Jesus as both fully God (as in Almighty God) and also as fully man. It is further claimed that the true definition of “Jesus” is “the Son of God in the flesh.” It is then assumed, based on this definition, that if Jesus is still alive, then he must also still be “in the flesh.” However, when we examine these scriptures, we find that there is nothing either in John 1 or Colossians 1 that justifies the conclusion that Jesus ever was, is now, or ever will be, the only true God (the Supreme Being, the only Most High). Nor do we see anything that gives us a definition that Jesus is now the “Son of God in the flesh.”

The Bible reveals that Jesus has had two different general forms of glory, but he did not have both at the same time. Before Jesus became a man, he spoke of a glory that he had with the only true God before the world (the world that was made through him; the world that he came into, the world that did not recognize him — John 17:1,3,5) was made. (John 1:3,10) Jesus prayed that he again have the glory that had with the only true God, so while he was in the days of his flesh, Jesus did not have that glory. If he did have that glory while in the days of his flesh, then why would he ask the only true God (John 17:1,3) to give that glory to him again? — John 17:5.

Paul spoke of the two general kinds of glory, when he was answering the question about the kind of body with which the dead are raised. He said: “There are also celestial [in the heavens] bodies, and terrestrial [in the earth] bodies; but the glory of the celestial differs from that of the terrestrial.” — 1 Corinthians 15:40.

Jesus, before he became a man, Jesus had the celestial glory, but he did not have the terrestrial glory. Thus John writes: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Ton Theon], and the Word was God [Theos, in this usage, more properly should be rendered “mighty,” in the sense of mightiness, not as “God” whom the Word was with]. The same was in the beginning with God [Ton Theon].”  (John 1:1,2) John was definitely not telling us that Jesus was “God” whom Jesus was with, but John is telling us of a special mightiness that Jesus had with the only true God before the world of mankind was made. — John 1:10; 17:3,5.

The title “Word,” designates Jesus as the Word of God, as shown in Revelation 19:13. John, in using the word “THEOS” of Jesus, was not making the claim that Jesus “was” the only true God whom Jesus was said he was with. (John 17:1,3,5) Many scholars say that THEOS here is speaking qualitatively. Forms of THEOS in the New Testament correspond with forms of the Hebrew word EL in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, when forms of the Hebrew word EL were used “qualitatively,” they could be used of other persons and things than Yahweh in the sense of might, power, strength.

We will begin by showing this usage with John 10:34,35, where Jesus quotes and refers to  Psalms 82:1,6, where the Psalmist uses both forms of the Hebrew word EL and ELOHIM, and thus these words are applied the sons of the Most High, the sons to whom the Logos came (as Jesus explained). In John 10:34,35, the word ELOHIM is rendered as THEOI, the plural of THEOS. According the King James Version, God [ELOHIM] standeth in the congregation of the mighty [EL]. (Psalm 82:1) In reference to the sons of the Most High, the KJV renders the term EL as “the mighty.” Applying this scriptural principle to THEOS in John 1:1, we would likewise have “the Logos was mighty.”

Additionally, this is not the only place that the KJV renders forms of the words EL (Strong’s Hebrew #410)  and ELOHIM (Strong’s Hebrew #430) with terms showing mightiness or strength. Here are a few scriptures: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). The point is the King James translators, in all these verses, did not render the word for deity/divinity [EL] as “God” or as “god”, but with terms of might, strength, great, power and might. Likewise, since John is definitely not stating that the Word was the God that the Word was with, the most directly scriptural understanding of John 1:1c should be: “the Word was mighty.”

All of the spirit beings, by “nature” of the superior might given to them by the Almighty are scripturally designated as el or elohim, and thus can be spoken of as divine — mighty — in being. — Psalm 8:5 (compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels as elohim); 45:6,7; Isaiah 9:6,7; John 1:1,2; Acts 2:33; 5:31; Ephesians 1:20,22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:2-4,8; 1 Peter 1:21; 3:22.

The scriptural conclusion is that since John is definitely not saying that the Word “was” (past tense) the only true God, then he is speaking of THEOS as a quality, that is, of the might, power, the glory that he “was” but was not while he was in the days of his flesh. Whatever is meant by THEOS in John 1:1c expresses what the LOGOS “was” before he became flesh, not while he “was” in the days of his flesh. – Hebrews 5:7

See the studies on John 1:1,2 at:
http://jesus.rlbible.com/?page_id=4871

When Jesus became a man, he no longer had the glory of the celestial, but he became fully a man, crowned with the glory a little lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9) As already, shown, while in the days of his flesh, Jesus did not have his former glory. (John 17:5) But he did possess the glory of a human, a glory that he maintained without spot or blemish, since he never sinned, and thus never fell short of the glory of his God and Father. (Romans 3:23) According to the scriptures, all mankind are dying because of Adam’s sin. (1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Romans 5:12-19) Yet Jesus never sinned. Does this mean that Jesus was not a man? Common evidence of the scriptures show that Jesus is not included in the “all” being spoken, since the manner in which he came into this world was not as a result of uniting a man’s sperm with the ovum of a woman. Hebrews 10:5 lets us know that his body was specially prepared by God Himself. He was not of dying race in Adam. (Romans 5:115-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22) Thus, his body was not a dying body, but it was a body having sinless life,  a body with the possibility of living forever, as Adam had before Adam sinned. John, in speaking in the past, while Jesus was flesh, said that: “In him was life.” (John 1:4) Jesus could not give dying flesh for mankind, but he could give living flesh (flesh not under condemnation of death), which he spoke of symbolically as “living bread.” (John 6:51) Jesus, therefore, offering his life, was offering the life that was in him, in his flesh, his human body, for the world of mankind. And having thus never sinned, having proven himself incorruptible before God even under severe sufferings, Jesus brought life and incorruption to light for mankind. (2 Timothy 1:10) He condemned sin in the flesh, proving that a sinless man could remain obedient. (Romans 8:3) In his obedience, he, as a human being, was brought to perfection, to completion, thus putting on incorruption (having proven himself incorruptible), as Adam could have done had Adam remained obedient. By his obedience to the only true God, Jesus thus conquered, and thus, as a human, no death could claim any hold on him. However, Jesus willingly gave up his human soul — his human sentiency — to pay the price for Adam and the dying race in Adam, so that his soul — his sentiency — was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)  In receiving his soul back from realm of death, from the Bible hell, Jesus’ soul was no longer with the glory of a physical, terrestrial, earthy, body, but it was then a with the glory of a celestial, spiritual, heavenly body. Jesus, by his taking Adam’s place, has become the “last Adam” — the last father — the human race, so that his is now, not an earthly father, but the “life-giving spirit” from heaven.

Jesus gave himself as human in sacrifice, he did not give himself as THEOS in sacrifice.  The ransom sacrifice of Jesus only buys back what Adam lost. Adam lost sinless life on earth, in a physical, terrestrial body; Adam did not lose life in the heavens. It was only due to his sin, that Adam fell short of the glory of God. Before he sinned, therefore, his flesh did not fall short of that glory. There is nothing at all in the Bible that indicates that life in the heavens was ever offered to Adam. Thus, what Jesus gave to purchase mankind was not a spiritual, a celestial glory, but rather an earthly, fleshly glory. By offering in sacrifice that crown of glory, which is a little lower than the angels, Jesus therefore tasted death for every man. — Hebrews 2:9.

Of course, the name “Jesus” was first applied to Jesus when he became a Man. Before he became a man, Jesus tells us of his existence with the only true God, and that he had a glory at that time which he did not have as a man. Thus he prayed that the glory that he formerly had should be given to him again. (John 17:1,3,5) John speaks of that glory by using the Greek word “theos.” (John 1:1,2) Theos does usually mean “God,” but it does not always mean so. The Hebrews many times used the Hebrew words that are translated into Greek by the word “theos” to mean might, power, strength, etc. Jesus applied this general meaning to theos when he spoke of the sons of God as THEOI, thereby rendering the Hebrew ELOHIM by the Greek word THEOI (a plural of THEOS —  As a man, Jesus had the full glory of man, since he never fell short of that glory due to sin, for in him was no sin. That glory, however, is a glory a little lower than the angels. (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7) Thus his human crown of glory was never marred with sin, as is true of the descendants of Adam. — Romans 3:23; 5:12-19.

Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. (1 Peter 3:18) If Jesus is still flesh, then he never sacrificed his flesh; thus there has never been any offering made to God for our sins. — John 6:51; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 9:14; 10:10,12.

Jesus is no longer in the “days of his flesh.” (Hebrews 5:7) He now has a celestial (heavenly), spiritual body, having become the life-giving spirit from heaven. — 1 Corinthians 15:40,44,45,47.

Thus, Jesus never had two different “natures” (glories) at once. Jesus, before he became flesh, did not have the crown of human being, a little lower than the angels, but he did have the a celestial glory alongside the only true God. When he became flesh, he did not have the glory that he formerly had, but he did have the terrestrial glory of a human being, a little lower than the angels. Having sacrificed the glory of being a human being, a little lower than the angels, Jesus now is again with the celestial glory. Jesus never possessed both glories at once, thus the doctrine of Jesus’ having dual natures/beings at once is not in the Bible.

See also:
Jesus’ Prehuman Glory

Jesus is not His God in the Flesh

It is sad to see that the son of Yahweh, the one anointed by Yahweh (Isaiah 61:1),  is exalted to the being of Yahweh who anointed him. This is done by trinitarians, believers in the oneness doctrine, as well as some others, such as Mormons (Latter-Day Saints). Such an exaltation actually destroys the basis of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus as revealed in the scriptures.
http://atonement.reslight.net

The scriptures no where refer to Jesus as his “God in the flesh.”  The God and Father of Jesus never became flesh. Jesus, being the Logos of his God, became flesh. As the Logos, Jesus was a mighty one with his God and Father (the only true God — John 17:3) before the world of mankind was made. (John 17:5) John never declared the Logos of the only true God to be the only true God whom the Logos was with. However, by applying the word THEOS to the Logos, John was declaring that the Logos “was” (past tense) mighty with his God before the beginning of the world of mankind. This is in keeping with the usage of forms of the Hebrew word “EL” when used of others than Yahweh or false gods. This can be seen by how the King James Version renders forms of EL in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). Likewise, in John 1:1, the Logos of God was mighty before he became flesh. He had the glory and might of celestial body (substance) that he did not have while in the days of his flesh. — John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 15:40; Hebrews 5:7.
http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/08/john-112-word-was-mighty.html

Mark 14:61-63 – Jesus’ Claim to be the Messiah

This is Part 3 in response to:

Blog of the Good Shepherd’s Question and Answer: The Trinity

The assertion is made that Jesus claimed to be God. If Jesus had so claimed, then it would mean, in effect, that Jesus was claiming to be his God who sent Jesus.

This claim is alleged to have support from Jesus’ words recorded at Mark 14:61-63:

Mark 14:61 – But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”
Mark 14:62 – And Jesus said, “I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 14:63 – And the high priest tore his garments, and said, “Why do we still need witnesses? — Revised Standard Version.

The question was asked of Jesus if he was the Messiah, the Anointed One of Yahweh, the Son of the Yahweh; the high priest did not ask Jesus if the he was the anointer of Messiah.  Jesus responded that he  was indeed the anointed one of Yahweh, and that the time was to come when they would see the Son of the Man (the son of the man David) seated at the right hand of Yahweh (Dunamis – Power – has evidently been substituted here for the holy name).  Jesus answered this by referring to Psalm 110:1, where we read:

Yahweh says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet.”

It should be very obvious that Jesus was claiming to be, not Yahweh, but the one who was to sit at the right hand of Yahweh.

Nor by saying “I am” was Jesus proclaiming himself to be Yahweh. In answer the question, he was saying “I am” the messiah, the one anointed by Yahweh. In the prophetic statement of Isaiah 61:1, Jesus is depicted as saying “Yahweh has anointed me,” that is, “Yahweh is the One who has made me Christ, Messiah.”  This was all that Jesus was affirming when he said “I am”. — See also Psalm 45:7; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38; Hebrews 1:9.

What we do not find at all anything that even implies that Jesus was claiming to the only true God whom he claimed had sent him. — John 17:1,3.

The high priest, believing that Jesus as a sinner making himself out to be the promised one was thus so angry at that he tore is garments, and proclaimed Jesus guilty of blasphemy. Not one word is said in any of the verses about Jesus’ allegedly claiming to his God. Such a thought has to be assumed, added to, and read into what Jesus said.

Nor is there anything special about Jesus’ saying “I am” in answering the affirmative to question that there is for me or you or anyone else who might do the same.  If someone asks Joe, who is a plumber, if he is a plumber, and he answers by saying “I am,” Joe is not saying that he is Yahweh.

For more information on Jesus’ “I am” statements, see:

http://godandson.reslight.net/i-am.html


http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,304.0.html